Talk:Chapter 197/@comment-197.89.22.249-20160505132001/@comment-27788729-20160509090142
No! You can't simply shift blame like that. Someone doing bad or doing worse to you doesn't justify what you do. German victims of Soviet Rape and Allied bombing in World War 2 don't just simply go 'well Hitler started a war' and then accept there is no one to blame. Honestly I can't believe you'd espouse a line which was so thoroughly demolished in legal tradition ages ago. Also, again, why are you bringing up stuff that has no relation to our discussion? The Busters, Kazuya's parents and Radox have nothing to do with the moral blameworthiness of mind control. At this point it feels like your inability to argue the point seems to lead you to simply rant about the 'injustices' done to Kazuya as if he's the only person you see capable of experiencing any sympathy or empathy with. Also your comparison of the E-Pandora section to this new ability is completely based off of knowledge you have as a reader outside the story and thus cannot be used for determining the morality of the actions of the characters from their perspective. From the perspective of Elizabeth both the E-Pandora project and Kazuya's new abilities appeared to be and appears to be, respectively, developments which can assist in fighting the Nova but which come at a cost she deems perhaps too high because she doesn't believe resorting to as inhumane tactics as possible to win is necessarily worth the cost. Also please, please don't talk to real soldiers with such a dehumanizing attitude. Do you really think that a solider must behave as a mechanical death unit with no interest in their self whatsoever? What is your position on POW's, cooperation on the field, the outlawing of certain weapons and refusal to often demolish areas wholesale to achieve victory for fear of collateral damage? Actually please don't tell me, this conversation has become utterly ridiculous and horrific. Also what does Accel have to do with anything we are discussing? Also, again, your ranting about Kazuya's 'oh-woe-is-me' life as if somehow that gives a justification for ones actions. Tons of people have tragedy and trauma everyday. There are children around the world being forced to fight as soldiers, used as slaves, who's parents have died, who's parents have murdered each other and worse. Tragedy isn't unique, trauma isn't unique, an entire planet full of people experience them and it is utterly horrible. IT DOES NOT HOWEVER JUSTIFY DOING WRONG OR BAD TO OTHER PEOPLE. I have experience a very particular and violatory pain in my life, it does not give me the right to inflict it upon others and say 'I was born into pain' nor am I under any illusions that my pain is somehow worse than the pain of others. Also it was not what they signed up for, please stop lying like that, nowhere when the Pandora signed up were they informed they might have to as a body become the slave soldiers of Gengo's pet project. They signed up because they were informed they'd be given the power to fight Nova and that they'd have to form a voluntary relationship of their own choosing with a partner they wanted as a Limiter. It is a lie to say 'this is what they signed up for' since as is clearly demonstrated again, in the chapter if you would please just read it, all of them are shocked by what has occurred and had no expectation, conception or awareness of it. Honestly I'm a bit frightened that your attitude seems to be; 'if the army felt raping you would help us win, we'd just allow you to be raped'. Also, again, we really differ morally. Assuming there is only one method, assuming Gengo is infallible is simply irrational and doesn't stand up to any rigorous logical inquiry since no-one is infallible. Additionally I do get it already, you believe ANYTHING is justified in order to reach a specific outcome. We differ there completely but I'm not going to make this an argument of moral philosophy since its getting long and ridiculous enough, instead I'll just respect we have differing moral philosophies. Why do you again bring up 'he had to do what he had to do'? That's already been concluded. Also how do you possibly think that gaining superpowers and using them to fight the Nova is wrong? (Not to mention where does your point even come from?) Since obviously no-one's being violated in that sense. I mean...if I were told I can fight my enemies two ways; (1) Get physical abilities which help me to fight them or (2) Get the ability to make innocent people my slaves and make them fight for me, obviously option (1) would be preferred to (2). Is this even a question? To be fair though I'm done with this. Since you characterize Kazuya as a 'king' of earth and you've consistently displayed through this discussion that you have little to no grasp of rigorous rational argumentation and very, very frightening conceptions of people and behaviour I'm done.